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Evolution of Sniping Style

Discussion in 'Snipin's a good job, mate!' started by ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ

    ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ Baby Zilla Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    I noticed there seems to be kind of an evolution of sniper vs sniper styles as a sniper gets better and better. This is sort of the path that I went and I notice other snipers seem to go through it as well.

    You'll see the snipers that are new who stand still while while they are scoped in. After a while, those snipers realize its a good idea to be mobile so they will start to move around a bit but they still tend to stay relatively still when they are scoped in and they take a while to aim and shoot.

    Once they get better, they realize that it is easier to hit enemy snipers that have just shot due to the movement restriction after shooting so some snipers will straffe and wait for their enemies to shoot first or scope in first and then they will "second" shoot.

    They will also learn that they themselves become a target after they shoot whether it is first shooting or second shooting so they will begin to jump after shots.

    Once they start to play better snipers, they realize that jumping against really good snipers can sometimes be a disadvantage since they follow a predictable path in the air so they will use the double duck technique/bug whether manual or scripted.

    A lot of snipers hit a wall at this point where they feel they aren't getting better so they ask how they can improve. When I asked this question to a sniper who is much better than me, I was told to stop second shooting and to try to first shoot more.

    At this stage, I consider myself a sniper that tries to first shoot but I still use the jump shooting technique. I think there are a lot of other snipers who play on Snipezilla who also use this kind of technique. However, I noticed the best snipers from <<+>> or NWA will use more of a hardscoping edge of wall technique (not sure what the official term is called). Also, I noticed that they will almost never pop out of the same spot two times in a row.

    I tried this hardscoping "passive" style and it was a bit strange to get used to. I feel like sometimes when I use this style, I'm waiting forever for an enemy to pass through my scoped in circle. Is it a matter of having a good game sense and knowing where to hardscope? Obviously improving aim and faster flick speed are important to get to the next level of sniping but do you guys think that switching to a more passive hardscoping style is the best way to reach the next level?

    Just figured I'd spark a discussion for those of us trying to improve.

    P.S. I put some Snipezilla footage together into a movie recently if anyone is bored (harmless plug for my movie :D).
     
  2. Darth Doggy

    Darth Doggy It's Doge time!! Staff Member Administrator Moderator Sʐ Tournament -Sʐ- Lord of the Memes Admin.Sʐ

    Mhmm, I experienced a similar progression. For me, I started off shuffling like a mad man, but never hitting a head. Then it was up to the point of having to learn the mechanics of quickscoping. After that, I befriended a veteran sniper going by the name of Inquest at the time, but changed to Ecstasy (not the NSA one). Showed me how to swipe and predict. Probably tried learning them too early on lol

    Took a break for a year before coming back to sniper. Aim was terribly off, but I had the luck of finding a trade server which fulfilled all my sniper needs ;) At that point, I was shuffling, fakescoping, jumping and everything else that, for a less hardened sniper, only wastes precious time.

    When I found Snipezilla, loved the community and feedback as to what I should do to improve. Over time, I got the same hints, as to avoid abusing your jumps, play unpredictably, shoot first and move on, use walls wisely and etc. I stopped jumping all-together around when I hit 30k points on the server. Out of principle and the fact that it actually helps me avoid people. I was probably still secondscoping quite a bit, but once I practiced my hardscope aim on moving targets instead of still ones, my k:d ratio went up quite nicely lol

    My current style is to barely move. Helps with aim and if I make a sudden move, it usually throws anybody trying to aim at me off. That and I like to predict!

    Btw, sweet vid!
     
  3. I dig the music in that movie of yours. What's its name?
     
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  4. Perish ♪

    Perish ♪ Oink oink Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    I don't believe hard-scoping behind walls is the next phase. Definitely not.

    What really fascinated me is how a few really excellent snipers are able to easily spot which enemies are aiming at them. Their trick is to deal with the person aiming at them first. This is better than giving them a chance of a shot at you after you shoot someone else. I noticed that these few excellent snipers know when to retreat. Meaning, if they assess that there are too much people aiming at them- it is better to hide in cover for a while. Most people do not make these judgements and usually simply try to shoot at the first head they can find. And that often means leaving you vulnerable to players that have been aiming at you.

    I believe the end-tier is a mixture of getting better at both aiming while unscoped, then (from hardscoping practices) aiming while scoped. And lets not forget relocating.

    Side Rant:
    The problem with the SvS community, I believe, is: Their ideologies are self-contradictory.
    First, they look down on strategies that give people an advantage. They preach about 'skill' and how these strategic advantages take away from the challenge. But, it is really a paradox in ideology. If someone is using an advantage over you: Then all the more challenge for you and all the more you can improve.

    The people that complain about these are complaining about the inevitable. There will always be newer inexperienced snipers. When they complain about people, for example 'corner sniping', what they are pretending to say is that there is no challenge in cheap tricks. But what they are really trying to say is that they want to be in equal footing with their opponent. With that, their drive for challenge and improvement is suddenly invalid. There are definitely ways to avoid getting corner sniped. Fairness does not equate to challenge.

    Or idk. I might be alone in this. I'm probably the only one that likes to play against aim-botters. :I
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  5. Mixup

    Mixup Legendary Best Sniper Staff Member Sʐ Tournament «+» Admin.Sʐ

    Zexlion - Nice way to get your video exposure haha :p At 0:56 you were aiming at someone else and i walked in front and got shot. I knew i wasn't the target for that one haha. I can see this is some older footage. I didn't have my australium yet and still had a white marauder's hat. I'm Min-Hee by the way lol :D



    Now on to the subject. A little info that people may not know. The first 1-2 years when TF2 was out, the sniper was a completely different entity. There was no penalty for taking any shots. You could move freely. There was also no limit on how many ducks you could press while in the air. People had scripts set up to do like 5 ducks in the air before they landed. There was also a script for CS style shooting where you could shoot, switch weapons and do a cancel type move and be able to shoot again negating the reload altogether. Valve caught on to this and quickly made patches. This is why they limited ducks to +2 in the air and also a slow down penalty after each shot. I forgot how they fixed the script for CS style shooting.

    This is where the problem occurs now and why TF2 sniping isn't really so much about skill anymore. If i take a shot, i am now vulnerable ( mainly to second shotting ). People figure instead of being stationary we should now duck or jump after each shot.

    I'm going to talk in reference to what Perish said. The main issue with TF2 in it's entirety is the hitboxes. Why couldn't they have made this game the way it should have been made like any other FPS shooter? Instead they make these ridiculous hitboxes that do not line up with the characters model at all. Here is 1 video that explains and shows it. It's really old footage and the quality isn't so great at some parts but you will understand it better after watching.



    Now with that being said, you can only hope to try and compensate for these hitboxes but it will never be all that accurate. Most people think that jumping is a valid tactic because people can't hit them when they crouch jump. That could not be farther from the truth. The truth is people don't have a hard time hitting your head in the air, they have a hard time even finding where the hitboxes are in the air because it's not even where the head is at anymore.

    The best way to prove skill is like you said to hit the person first. Sadly this is almost impossible because of hitboxes and the way TF2 is set up. And that's where second shotting comes from. In my opinion don't take the shot if you can't make it or can't escape it. You miss your shot you deserve to die. TF2 is no longer about proving skill anymore. People just want to be known in the game these days and will go at any length to attain that title whether it be jumping and crouching or wall creeping etc..

    Final thought - If you want to prove skill or that you are better than me or anyone else, then shoot me first or don't abuse hitboxes and use your strategies and juking techniques to obtain the best shot. Don't use the excuse that oh we should all have to adapt and try to find ways to hit shitty hitboxes. That's just a cop out to try and make your exploitable techniques valid.
     
  6. ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ

    ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ Baby Zilla Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    Hey mixup,
    That history of TF2 sniping is quite interesting. I really didn't want to prove that I am better than you or anything like that. I know that you are leagues ahead of me. I started to take sniping seriously about one year ago so I do take pride in how much I've improved over the past year (especially since I'm 30+ years old like you and our ability to learn new skills, reaction time, and reflexes aren't quite what they used to be) and maybe that's why I make the occasional video as a way for me to remember later in life my days playing a sniper in TF2 and also provide a bit of entertainment for others.

    Those few kills on you were just part of some streaks I had. I was looking for footage where I killed people in rapid succession with only a little delay between kills since I thought that would make for the best footage. I knew you were Min Hee which is why I ended the video with you standing above my dead body out of respect for you.

    That being said, I will always join the opposite team as you and try my best to kill you just as I do for any sniper that I know is better than me. I like the challenge :D.
     
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  7. Mixup

    Mixup Legendary Best Sniper Staff Member Sʐ Tournament «+» Admin.Sʐ

    Oh no bro, you're cool man. My post wasn't directed towards you or any one person in particular. I guess it came out wrong the way i formatted it. It was a general statement saying if " random " sniper wants to prove himself or herself to the community and to themselves that they are a superior sniper ( competively speaking no ego ), then that's the way to do it. No gimmicks.

    I'll try and put together a short clip of my demos sometime. I never jump after any of my shots and people have a tough time with me. So that's how I know sniping can be done fairly and still kick butt.
     
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  8. Mixup

    Mixup Legendary Best Sniper Staff Member Sʐ Tournament «+» Admin.Sʐ

    Posting from my phone and it posted when I wasn't finished for some reason.

    You're actually pretty good yourself Zex. You're not that far away from being top notch. I think it's just more playtime needed for now. I've been playing for like 6 years lol. So it's like a natural reflex for me. Ya I just found out from someone that we are the same age just about. I'll be 32 this year. I heard dopeness is our age as well.

    I like videos as well, just always too lazy to create any. Haha ya I was just busting your balls. Definitely kill streaks are the best format for videos. Wish I had recoded my record of 33 in a row :D

    Darn you saw through my disguise haha. Ya I troll around way too much. Probably why no one knows me yet only the old school guys like Magnus. That's actually always been a theme with me. All my friends end up wanting to snipe against me haha. Slows me down in getting points on snipezilla.
     
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  9. Magnus

    Magnus Ambassador of Banned players Human Rights... [=ΩH=]

    lol mix
     
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  10. w3w.d0pe°e$

    w3w.d0pe°e$ Newbie Zilla Sʐ Tournament

    Teach me how to juke.
     
    Mixup likes this.
  11. Perish ♪

    Perish ♪ Oink oink Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    Someone once accused me of "juke-scoping". Although it is irritating for them, I am not really unscoping to throw them off. Rather, it is either because I chose to hide instead of making the shot (due to too many people aiming at me and would inevitably kill me if I made that shot) OR because I want to aim at someone else (aiming unscoped allows us to move the crosshair a lot farther and faster) OR adjusting my aim because some people just strafe waay too far.

    But even if I was "juke-scoping" in order to shoot someone AFTER they have scoped in: The scenario still is that the complainer scoped-in AFTER I "juke-scoped". We should also remember that "second-shots" are only possible in a 1v1 if the first shooter missed at a moving target.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2014
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