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TF2 Your opinion of hacking or not hacking?!??

Discussion in 'PC Games Discussion' started by J.D. wHO DAt, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. J.D. wHO DAt

    J.D. wHO DAt Moderator Staff Member Moderator The Enforcer -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    As some of you have heard one of our highly ranked players has been accused of hacking.(wall hacking)

    After seeing the video I thought there was some pretty suspicious activity going on but, I am not a professional at hacking/exploiting.

    As an Admin of SnipeZilla my main goal is to keep the server clean and an enjoyable place to play. So as that being said, I will let this community chime in on lifting the ban that is being enforced at the moment, or leaving the ban permanent.

    Please feel free to comment any way you like that way if Wew wants to explain he can, but maybe there is nothing to explain because I am wrong about this hacking accusation.

    Profile Page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198084207386/

  2. ΩhiteΣtripeʐ

    ΩhiteΣtripeʐ Active Zilla SNIPEZILLA

    I'm unsure. Anyone else?
  3. Perish ♪

    Perish ♪ Oink oink Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    I've seen this. It is not a wall hack- just an exploit. Because of the POV he is able to see from behind the wall. That recording is from the default POV. It is as much of an exploit as taunting behind a wall to see through it.
  4. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    "Exploting" and Wallhacking are the same damn thing. Honestly, if you are going to exploit with any method it might as well be called cheating. That being said, I've been playing TF2 since the night it was released with the Orange Box back in 2007, and I've been playing source games since the late 90's beginning with the all-time classic, Half Life. I can tell you right now, it is easier than you think to make a "wallhack" for source games, especially when the server does not force players connecting to use the same/default files provided with team fortress 2. As of right now, I can change all of the textures to a wireframe texture in my tf2 directory, and play on the server with what would be considered a genuine wallhack.

    I have to be honest, when I first played with .wew I could see he was playing better than any platinum sniper I've ever seen. I wanted to mention something then, but figured I would instantly be shut down considering he has made it to adminship and would be fairly "trustworthy."

    Now, about the sounds in the source engine. No matter how well your sound system is, no matter how f***in high-tec your surround sound system is. It will not tell you if a sniper is on the second floor, or bottom floor. Especially in the map the video was taken with. I've got quite the ear, and have headshot cloaked spies while they are invisible and walking around. You can only tell how far an enemy is away from you based on sound. And beyond a certain distance, you can tell their direction. But you cannot tell their yaw positioning in a leveled map like this. It would take a much greater height difference where Player A is literally at a 75+degree angle in comparison to Player B at least 50 units below / above.

    One more thing, and this has to do with player behavior. Over the years playing, I've noticed there are a few different types of hackers.
    Competitive Hackers, No-Life Hackers (The ones you see joining random servers trying to get a rouse out of people), and Vengeance (They get shit on by their opponent and want to get back at them...)
    What sets these types of cheaters apart is their willingness to get caught. Competitive Hackers will train themselves to do things the same way every time they spawn in. Granted you cannot do something exactly the same way, however, you can create a scary close similarity through habit. Compared to "No-Life Hackers" and the out for vengeance hackers, these guys are insanely good at hiding it, because they've built their repetitive habits to hide the fact that they hack. What also sets these types of hackers apart is their networking, or who they friend, and how many other people they will cheat with. I can say with 90% certainty that Competitive Hackers will always have at least on person on their friends list that uses the same cheat. Why would you cheat with multiple people? Wouldn't that increase your chances of getting caught? Its actually quite the opposite. You can literally improve your ability to hide your cheats when you have other people practicing the same skill and sharing what they know with you and if one person gets banned, the others can get away and learn based on that mistake.

    *Heads up, this next section is rather blocky :/*
    I want to mention that wew. was connected with three other people I found to be very suspicious, and ultimately wound up finding out my suspicions were correct.
    I'm sure some of you had seen "Lucy", "Twisty<<+>>", and perhaps "Kev." All three were very "good." In-fact, so good, they were just like wew. They were out performing platinum snipers.
    I did some digging 2 months ago when I saw Twisty teleport up into one of the Orange towers and snapshot a player after spinning 180 degrees around instantly. (You know how the teleports some times face you looking the wrong way?) It could have been "teleport" lag, but I honestly don't think so. Twisty left after I saw it only 5-10 minutes later after I presume they realized I was in spectate.
    2 months ago Twisty did not have a "UHC Caution" status.
    "Lucy": STEAM_0:1:68431250
    "Twisty<<+>>": STEAM_0:0:24870827
    If I recall correctly, Lucy's steam profile was always set to be private, but twisty's only recently set their profile to private.
    Why would anyone set their profile to private? Especially when they intend to compete in a UHC Tournament.

    I'm no expert, but my experience with games is backed by countless hours of play as well as observing countless cheaters do their thing.

    Edit: Forgot to mention my claim that although POV can be used to see around corners, i've never seen it used this well. NEVER. If anything, its just another line of defense a wall hacker can use to protect their mischievous game play, and it cannot explain why Wew. was able to make that shot at 11:22 in the video.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  5. ΩhiteΣtripeʐ

    ΩhiteΣtripeʐ Active Zilla SNIPEZILLA

  6. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    Indeed, but the average player does not know this!
  7. Perish ♪

    Perish ♪ Oink oink Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    Not by technical definition. Hacking does not include exploits. Rules are made based on technical definition. If anything, to prevent this, the rules should be changed to disallow exploits- if exploits weren't already disallowed.

    Furthermore, servers have this feature that forces clients to pure tf2 files just to prevent simple exploits like replacing textures with wire frames.

    On another note: All-class and HL sniping is different from SvS. And many of the snipers that excel in all-class games do not necessarily excel in SvS and vice versa. Although, there are a few that I have noticed that are good at both.

    There are certain maps that are ideal for using a specific method of sniping. One where it involves being zoomed-in before exposing themselves from the wall. Maps like Ridge and Dot. And those are where the snipers you have seen excel at. Lucy admitted herself that she isn't good at maps like the space one and orange. What ever the case is: Actual wall-hacking benefits a user in every map.

    Lucy and wew's profiles aren't set to private. Maybe private to non-friends.

    I do that every once in a while :I
    Well, probably because I always shoot at the side of the walls just in case someone pops out :p
    I mostly don't hit anything when I do that though.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
    w3w.d0pe°e$ likes this.
  8. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    While I agree, by technical definition "exploit" is different than "hacking" however, they both entail cheating or cheap game play methods. Even then, why should someone have to mention that you are not allowed to exploit when they've already told you not to straight up cheat? It's a dick move using a loophole like that.

    Its easy to tell when a server does not have sv_pure2 enabled. Put a custom sound mod, or even a skin in your custom folder and join. If nothing has changed, you can probably figure out how to wallhack.

    Turns out SnipeZilla does not have this feature enabled.
    I'm not sure what server this was recorded on so I can't just say "Oh they must not have it enabled there either."

    This is true, I have played against Max! on SVS once or twice and found I could out snipe him in areas for certain. But this doesn't excuse the fact that twisty has a UHC Caution status.

    - Super human reflexes exist only in our fantasy worlds. Even if its a cm in distance, I really can't believe that someone has honed their attention span to a point where they can literally snap on to a moving/twitching/jumping player's head and tap their Mouse button within all within milliseconds of turning the corner and seeing the target.

    - Doesn't excuse the fact that its private to the public. I'm sure if I added Wew or even Lucy they would deny the request after I've accused them of cheating.

    Can you tell me the odds in some kind percentage of this phenomenon happening? Can you then factor in the odds of someone happening to be recording you do it? Perhaps also factor in the odds of Wew deciding to pre-shoot bottom right of map when we clearly saw a top left bias. If anything, this video that shows Wews tendency to act in very repetitive patterns could prove that if he wanted to get lucky as such, he would blind-fire top left, and not bottom right. You could factor in the odds with that decision made by Wew as well.

    Now, I can't necessarily use this as 100% justifiable argument here because of variables in the setting here... Seeing a player that joined Steam in 2009 perform this well just stands out to me. I know people can get good at something quicker than others. I know some people are just more adept to learning things than others. But to have these maps memorized, and player behavior memorized, is flat out astonishing to me. Here's my example to back this idea up. I play a good bit of Man Vs Machine. Two Cities mostly. I've seen people with 200+ tours, who tell me they haven't even memorized what each wave of the 4 missions include. Put it to the numbers. 200+ x 4 = 800+ You've played each of the 4 missions 200+ times for a total of 800+ times, and cannot remember what the next wave's bots are? They do the same thing every time. Their movement patterns deviate on numbers, not human intuition.
    But that could just mean they aren't dedicated to memorizing it, they don't feel the need to? Certainly, but then how can you memorize your opponents intuitive decisions?
    At 5:08 in the video, its a good example of this. How the f*** did he know this guy was to hop over (even with the POV changed), how did he know this sniper would then strafe back into the line of fire, rather than go further into the bunker to the right. Spur of the moment? How many "Spur of the moments" will wew get in one day!?
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  9. Perish ♪

    Perish ♪ Oink oink Staff Member -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    Yes. But taunting behind the wall also accomplishes the same cheap trick and is also an exploit. But no one is going to flip out on someone taunting behind a wall. There are many cheap gameplay methods considered by many people as unfair, easy, and should be disallowed but are allowed.

    My point is that while I don't advocate the use of such exploits, I do not believe he is hacking. That's what the thread questions. And I say that I don't believe he is. I believe the whole point of all these investigation is to determine whether or not he is guilty. So let's reevaluate the thread topic question and scenario.

    Case 1: He was rightfully banned because he was hacking.
    Case 2: He was wrongfully banned because he was NOT hacking.
    Case 3: He was rightfully banned because he was exploiting.
    Case 4: He was wrongfully banned because exploiting does not go against the rules.

    The hacking claim is very iffy and not many people believe it. But it is well known and is VERY EVIDENT that he uses a certain POV as an exploit. This is irrefutable. And so the question becomes: Does the exploit justify the ban?

    The question seems simple but let's go over some technicalities and ethics. If no rules against exploits were explicitly stated prior to the ban one might say that it was injustice and if there were some explicit rules against exploits such culprits might have avoided partaking in incriminating actions. Such issue was a problem in in Snipezilla as well: Seeing as the spy class being available on orange- they immediately assume they are allowed to utilize the spy's main weapon. Although we always say that "It is a sniping server." It isn't actually their fault because it is a logical assumption and they were unknowingly breaking the rule. And what rule? For the longest time the rules were not written on the MOTD, forums, or anywhere. Actually, the snipezilla rules might not be written anywhere accessible to the public still today. Although, now backstabs are much easier to tolerate with the automated kicks.

    On the other hand: We have the shared ideals of the majority of the tf2 sniping community. Not everyone has the same preference but there are always ideals that the majority has in common. This most probably includes fair gameplay. What does most, if not all, SvS servers have in common? They are all trying to provide the ideal sniping environment. And this environment most probably advocates fair game play. As an example: Earlier today, two players were flooding the chat with profanity- most likely through a bind. This is a problem because it impedes communication and as far as I'm concerned, it impeded me from giving out warnings (I had kicked the two players instead of muting them because I am not fully certain if muting people is permanent until the mute is removed manually). The point is: A flooded chat is not an ideal gameplay environment of the majority. And so that justifies their punishment (in this case it was just a kick). To the matter at hand: Even though exploits that ruin the gameplay for many due to unfairness are not explcitly disallowed, they are often implicitly understood by the majority as wrong.

    What really all this boils down to is technicality versus ethics.

    I don't know what to tell you. Except its real. I know many people that can do it, and not to gloat but I can do it. Also, I think the profile privacy is irrelevant. They are friendly people, and probably wouldn't hate your guts just because you accused them of cheating. Actually, I just recently checked my profile and it is apparently set to "friends only" too. I don't recall why I did that though.

    In the instance of 11:20 - 11:25, his aim was already set on the bottom right before the target walks down the center stairs. This means he aimed at the bottom right before he could possibly know (if he was wall hacking) whether or not the target would be turning left or right.

    Your MVM example is a good example of players neglect at remembering patterns, not an example of players predicting their enemies. And so, I believe it is merely for emphasis but it isn't a good choice for comparison. Here is an example of my own: On the towers of orange you have a better view of everyone- even of enemies that may be trying to hide behind walls. As a major draw back, many of your enemies can see you at the tower and it is relatively easy to for anyone to snipe someone at the tower. Let's not forget that often more than one enemy will be aiming at you at the tower as you are looking down. Another pattern, players that have been killed by someone at the tower usually has the tendency to get revenge on the stationary target because they also realize the obvious pattern that people that camp towers- will stay camped at towers. Yes, it would be smart to relocate but being on the tower, if I wanted to, I could simply just snipe one person and keep sniping that same person. This is because that one person will almost always try to kill me- especially if I'm always killing them. I can spot them easily because I can see the difference between someone aiming up at me and someone aiming down at my allies. I know all the usual places they would try to secretly aim for me. The more different people I kill, the more different people will be aiming up my tower- and that makes things difficult. Although, it is very possible that other enemies will look up at the tower just to check, I have realized there aren't as much people if I only kill the same one person (provided I have enough team members to keep others distracted and am faster at aiming than my chosen adversary). I also tend to memorize people's hats or lack of hats and identify people from their strafing patterns, usual hiding spots, frequency of relocation, frequency of popping out from walls etc. This helps in prioritizing who to kill first or avoid. The point of this example is to help provide proof that predicting people's actions is something very possible.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
    ΩhiteΣtripeʐ likes this.
  10. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    Right, I can see this will be a good conversation :)

    Even with being able to see around corners with the taunt, it is no where near advantageous as the pov exploit. Taunting and looking around corners gives you a visual of enemies, but does not allow you to line your aim up with the target before going around the corner unless they are literally standing still for the entire duration of your exploit, and then movement out of cover, aim adjust, and firing.

    Where is Case 5 and 6?
    Case 5: He was rightfully banned because he was hacking and exploiting.
    Case 6: He was wrongfully banned because he was NOT hacking, and exploitation does not go against the rules.

    I can see you strongly believe he was not hacking, buts lets not leave out these two very important cases. In the end, we cannot know with 100% accuracy as to whether he was hacking or not. What we can do, is justify our claims in such a manner that can lead us to believe whether he was guilty of hacking or not. This instance of not knowing 100% whether its true or not really only happens with wallhacks and cautious cheaters. Aimbots are irrefutably visible to an observer.

    I'd really love to hear from those who don't think he is hacking. Could you perhaps invite them to thread? It's not that our conversation is inadequate, but I want see just how many people are in disagreement with this ban that has been placed.

    Think of it like the laws that are set down in countries around the world. Laws tend to be made after a person has demonstrated the need for a law to be created. Jailing them for something they did before the law was created (because of them) does seem rather wrong and carries a bit of injustice.

    But what brought about the law prohibiting murder in our societies? I can't tell you for certain that it was made before or after the first human being slayed another, but why did the need for the law come about? Would it be right to let the person who murdered another get away with that awful deed?

    Comparing real life issues and game exploiting does seem a bit stretched, but there are players, like I, who detest the use of exploits for advantageous use in competitive or practice environments. Encroaching on that territory tends to piss me off, and I'm sure it does others. We've seen how good Wew can exploit corners with his POV difference, whose to say he will change his ways after an unban? If his repetitive behaviors are that well built, how the hell could he ever break the habit?

    I can't say much about this other than, What is it do you expect to be doing in a Sniper Server? If you decide to play spy after seeing it is available in a sniper only server, anyone with the capacity for logical thought processes would see there is a potential issue here. This leads me to believe that players who join a sniper server and play spy with their knife or revolver, have the intention of being different than what the server implies. It's not so much that they are unknowingly breaking a rule but stretching their freedoms because lack of said rules.

    As I was saying above, its literally implied, and evident through example when you a join a sniper only server. I know I can't entirely rule out the possibility of someone seriously being that dull (excuse my rude wording) and doing things on a whim without a care in the world until they are legitimately warned they are infringing upon set rules, or understood rules.

    I've always understood that when you join a server with a different gamemode than the classic modes provided with team fortress 2, you would take time to investigate the nature of the mode, and its mechanics.
  11. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    Muting players with the admin tool will only mute them for the duration that they are in the server - For future reference [​IMG]
    (People have expressed interest in a module for muting people and saving this status for the next time they join, but it's honestly a flimsy idea because at this point you should probably just ban the person.

    Here is what I find wrong with the argument stating rules must be explicitly stated to ensure a fair justification of kicking/banning players. From what you've told me, it was clear these two people had intended to spam the chat from the minute the joined the server. It's not about what they are exploiting, its about their intentions right from the start. So wouldn't it be fair to ban them with the justification that they are not sniping?
    This supports my argument that people who don't follow implied rules, are intentionally doing it more often than blindly breaking rules innocently.

    You're talking about this like its a skill! I'm positive everyone in the world can do it, its just a game of odds. And apparently Wew has a "+50% odds in favor" bonus.

    There is not much else that I can say about having private profiles. Twisty's profile was not set to visible to only to friends 2 months ago. The decision to change was interesting considering the UHC Caution.

    You could only make this argument basing the time frames beginning of 11:20. The wireframe visual provided by the console command is meant to give you an idea, and in no way shape or form represent an actual wallhack in action. Most if not all wallhacks enable you to see players well before the rendering distance that this console command has.

    Not sure if you know this, but most if not all players will aim in the direction the hallway leads that is around the corner before turning the corner. If that makes any sense...

    Imagine a T shaped junction and a player is running up the center line. Humans have a natural tendency to "increase efficiency" in ways that they think might help. Especially in a heated sniper map. Let’s say for instance the player running up the center line knows they want to left. I do this too! I will turn myself at least a full 45 degrees to the left before I've even turned the corner. It's a shame the video did not capture a different lapse, where the player chose the other side, but I can guarantee you if the player had chose the other location, Wew would not have tried to follow up and expose the wallhack.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  12. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    Good example, but this was exactly what I aimed to counter when playing against Lucy. I learned that this player would target you 80% more of the time if you expressed your disinterest with the Sydney Sleeper. Having mentioned something, I found myself constantly getting killed by Lucy before anyone else could get to me.

    I did things that would throw off this memorization on Orange specifically. I changed my load out to similar sets that other players were wearing. I literally changed my movement patters, what side of the map I favored, spots I used to snipe from. I did not simply walk out with a new outfit and resume looking up at the towers or around specifically for Lucy. Yet Lucy was able to pick me off as the first target every time.

    Sure, if I am wearing near or exactly the same outfit as someone else, you would think a quick glance around the map would reveal two of the same snipers, meaning one must be me, considering my original outfitted sniper has disappeared but that takes more than a few seconds right? If you can scan an entire map with all of the hiding places, and all of the visible outfits, and then make the decision that this slightly different outfitted player is the same one that has been after you for a while, you might as well call yourself master of the sniper and choose a different class to master. The complexities in this are far beyond my willingness to explain :/
  13. Mixup

    Mixup Legendary Best Sniper Staff Member Sʐ Tournament «+» Admin.Sʐ

    0:40 definitely don't know how he would have known they had jumped out and on the right already.
    3:35 no way he could have known someone dropped down and he tried to aim at them already
    3:57 he had no idea someone was on bottom and clearly started aiming at them through the wall
    6:18 pre-aim bottom left when he never really does simply because he knows someone is there

    I think that's all i need to see. Those are clearly wall hacking situations. And notice he misses almost all his shots. Usually people who only wall hack and not aimbot are using the hack as a clutch in which you sacrifice aim for that.
    DrunkDoc likes this.
  14. Mixup

    Mixup Legendary Best Sniper Staff Member Sʐ Tournament «+» Admin.Sʐ

    Twisty doesn't hack. He works 2 jobs and barely has time to play. I've known him for many years. Hacking would serve no purpose for him. He simply doesn't care enough to do that. I'm not sure how the shot you're talking about went down on the orange map so i can't comment on it.

    Lucy however i hardly know and can seem pretty sketch.
  15. ExplosiveDeer

    ExplosiveDeer Rocket Man Staff Member The Mapper Admin.Sʐ

    I know this doesn't really fit here entirely, but I think I may have picked up an idea as to how to prevent players from using the POV exploit while still allowing custom files to be used (i.e sounds, skins). It'd be a sliver of a push trigger on the corner of every wall where you can snipe around that would push you towards the open/out from cover. It'd have to be a very small sliver and account for the maximum POV difference. As well as somehow be unobtrusive to those who don't need to POV exploit.
  16. cedde

    cedde Snipin's a good job, mate! Staff Member SNIPEZILLA Admin.Sʐ Sʐ Tournament -Sʐ-

    Does sv_pure protect for any wallhack?
  17. J.D. wHO DAt

    J.D. wHO DAt Moderator Staff Member Moderator The Enforcer -Sʐ- Admin.Sʐ

    Not sure if it will keep hacking from happening but it will keep from exploiting I do believe, but Deer would know more. If Wew isn't going to protest any of the information and opinions given on this thread I am just going to leave the verdict at banned for now, unless anyone has any objections.
  18. w3w.d0pe°e$

    w3w.d0pe°e$ Newbie Zilla Sʐ Tournament

    I like how you brought Lucy's and Twist's name here. HaHaH.
  19. disco

    disco godfather

    "Out play platinum snipers"
    Honestly, I've stomped multiple platinum snipers and I've been stomped by platinum snipers. Stop holding them so highly just because they participate in a competitive game mode of TF2, a lot of plat snipers are stupid and made it up there through teamwork, SvS does not show anyone's ability in Highlander. It shows who is more efficient and who is the better killer, so bringing up HL and Platinum Snipers like they have some higher standings and ability was invalid and useless.
    I got banned by Crab Nicholson or whatever he aliases as after he kept going to the same spot and I kept killing him.
    I was doing my thing, being a Sniper, and headshotting people, and once I got another kill, I noticed that I got banned.
    The reason: Wallhack(Heh, whatever you say.)

    I haven't used any form of hack on this game and I promised myself not to do so when I first started because I didn't want to lose another account like I did when I got VAC banned on CoD in 2012. Skill level is not determined by participation in competitive leagues or anything of the sort.
    A lot of these 'hackusations' I see are very far fetched and have a lot of holes in the analyses, I'd love a full review of something and not something half asses and biased.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
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